Discussion


Jan 11, 2012

Replaced Twelve Old Optima Batteries With Sixteen DEKA Batteries From Backwoods Solar

Nov 23
Nov 30
Dec 3
Jan 23, 2013
Feb 25
Mar 22

Insufficient Power To Make It Through The Night. Asked Seller For Help
Seller and I Cannot Seem To Communicate
Communicating With Deka Support. Testing ... Testing ...
Battery #3 Proves To Be Defective
Seller Cannot Accept Conclusion But Agrees To Replacement
After Two Weeks Of A Consistently Strong System, I Declare Success

July 4
July 10
July 12
July 17
July 22
July 23
October 2

3000 Miles Away, I Discover That The System Has Shut Down. A Friend Reactivates It.
Again ...
Again ...
Again ...
Tim Pinar, Electrician, And Dan Pritchett, Solar Tech, Investigate
Dan Pritchett Evaluates The Setup And Suggests A Solution
Dan begins the ultimate successful culmination with 4 additional panels, followed by ...





 Replacing The Battery Bank
Van to
Backwoods Solar
Jan 11, 2012
5:24 PM
I have 16 B-DK-8A27 Deka AGM Batteries in your cart.

I installed my 48V off-grid system in 2007 with 12 Optima blue batteries. This worked reasonably well until recently. Now the system seems to loose its power way too quickly.

From what I have read since then, I get the impression that the Optimas were a bad idea. Do you agree? (Thought I could save on shipping by getting them at Autozone.)

Not sure, but I think the Optimas put out 55 AH. These Dekas are rated at 92 AH. Does that mean that a full charge should last 37 more hours, more or less?

(See ad created for you back then at https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2007/Solar/solar.html)

Backwoods Solar
to Van
Jan 12
2:11 PM
Yes, having batteries like that last 5 years is probably about the limit depending of course on the usage you have put on them. Not sure any battery you get at AutoZone or Costco is the right answer for off-grid power.

Don't confuse amp/hours with running hours. If you have 37 more amp/hours in your battery bank and you run a 74 amp load, your battery bank will last only 30 mins more. Capacity is still dependant on loads. If your batteries are dying too quick, cut down the power usage in the home or get a bigger battery bank.

When you place the order we will confirm the shipping costs and drop you an email with the order total - Once its confirmed by you, we will get the batteries rolling towards you.     Regards, Craig


Backwoods Solar
to Van
5:46 PM
Thank you for your order with Backwoods Solar!
Date : 12 Jan 2012 - 17:46   Order ID : 44505188   Payment by Credit card
Product : Quantity : Price
B-DK-8A27 Deka AGM Battery : 16 : 227.00
TOTAL : 3632.00
Billing details: Van Blakeman   ... address ... MA   Telephone, Cell phone, E-mail
Shipping address (if different from the billing address): Van Blakeman ... address ... Joshua Tree, CA, 92252


Backwoods Solar
to Van
12:11 PM
Van - The shipping charge would be $72 dollars and we could have them to you in 2 days.
Are we ok to proceed ?      Thanks, Craig


Van to
Backwoods Solar
12:21 PM
So if that is a total of $3704, I'm good with that.
Any idea what I can do with 12 Optima's 5 years old?

Backwoods Solar
to Van
Van - Boat anchors? Melt them down for bullet or fishing sinkers? Actually, you can take them to battery stores, and perhaps they will buy them from you. Many places will buy the cores to recycle.      Thanks for the order, Craig

Backwoods Solar
to Van
12:57 PM
Thanks for the order. We received it today and will be processing it at once. Your total charge is $3704.00 and it should ship via truck freight Conway. We will call you with tracking information. As a rule, shipments arrive in perfect condition HOWEVER when the Deka batteries arrive it is ABSOLUTELY critical that you inspect the unit for any damage. Do not assume that a packing box in good condition implies a unit in good condition.
Please inspect for any concealed damage as well. The driver must wait for you. If there is any damage, do note it on the bill of lading before you sign it. If damage is not noted, we will not be able to file a claim on your behalf. Thanks for taking the time to observe this method. Good luck with your projects, and let us know how it works out.      Scott

Van to BW Solar
Jan 16, 3:25 PM
2 days Didn't happen. What is the ETA? - Van

BW Solar to Van
3:49 PM
Batteries were shipped on Friday via conway freight - PRO #809808156. Looks like the delivery time was off by a few days.
Sorry for any inconvenience. We can only pass on what the shipper tells us.      Backwoods Solar


Van to BW Solar
Jan 17, 12:50 PM
They just arrived - in good condition - 2 days before their estimated delivery date. - Van

BW Solar to Van
5:10 PM
Van - Glad to hear it. Enjoy !      Backwoods Solar


 Problems
Van to
Backwoods Solar
Nov 23, 2012
11:50 AM
Now I need some help.
We have been away for 7 months. The system kept our Crosley fridge, irrigation pumps, desktop computer (which I operated frequently through TeamViewer) and cameras going with no problems. Now that we are back, we are not getting adequate power to make it through the night, the way we used to.

From my installation in 2007 to early 2011, using 12 Optima Bluetop batteries, an Outback MX60 Charge Controller and an Exeltech XP1100-48 Inverter, we had plenty of power to meet our needs. Early 2011, we did not.
So I replaced the 12 Optimas with 16 Dekas ordered from you, and then we departed for 7 months.

Basically there is no change in performance. Even with the PTZ cams and the fridge unplugged at night, and not using the 700W microwave after 3:00 PM, it is difficult to get a full pot of coffee in the morning, even though that machine is plugged into a 1500VA / 900W Simulated sine wave UPS. We have to wait for the sun to come over the hill, plus an hour or so, before we can plug everything back in and things get back to normal.

When I installed the 16 batteries, I did not adjust the MX60, and I am guessing that I should have done something here, though not sure what. I did Reset it. HELP!

Van to BW Solar
Nov 28, 4:41 PM
Is anybody going to respond? Just let me know that you got it. Thx.

BW Solar to Van
Nov 29 11:20 AM
Have tried to call a couple times... Please call us at your convenience and we can help you with these battery issues.     Regards, Backwoods Solar

Van to BW Solar
11:42 AM
I have to talk by email, if just so that I can review what was said.
And my new phone died. Waiting for replacement.

BW Solar to Van
12:05 PM
Van - Having a battery bank sit for several months can certainly be detrimental ..
What are the specific gravities you are seeing from the batteries ?
When was the last time you equalized ?
How many watts are you using in an average 24hr period ?
    Let us know, Backwoods Solar


Van to BW Solar
6:37 PM
"Having a battery bank sit for several months can certainly be detrimental"
  Did you read my original message [Dated: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 11:50:14]?
  The bank was in use and very active while we were away.

"What are the specific gravities you are seeing from the batteries ?"
  All I know about gravity is that it was discovered by Isaac Newton. What do you mean?
  It sounds like something you should know since you sold them to me.

"When was the last time you equalized ?"       What is that?

"How many watts are you using in an average 24hr period?"
  As explained in original message, the wattage consumption is intentionally less then it used to be when all was well.
  However, I have been measuring the consumption of each device with a Ryobi meter and putting together a spreadsheet with the results.
  Regardless, that is irrelevant because I am now unplugging things that used to run 24/7 for nearly 5 years with no problems.

BW Solar to Van
Nov 30, 8:01 AM
May I suggest you purchase our battery book.

BATTERY BOOK FOR YOUR PV HOME     by New England Solar     $10

This 22 page booklet covers lead acid batteries, care and testing, and how to make them last longest. Hydrometer testing, voltage readings, and battery equalizing explained. We give this book free with each battery sale.

Most of the problems you are experiencing with batteries can be solved by reading the 'battery book' and applying its lessons. Things like specific gravities and equalization will make sense and and you will understand what I mean about having a battery bank sit for several months. (hint - its not usage that I was asking about, its maintenance)

Let us know how you would like to proceed.     Thanks for contacting Backwoods Solar, Craig


Van to BW Solar
12:31 PM
You had no problem accepting my $3704.00.
Why do you have a problem helping me figure this out?

BW Solar to Van
3:49 PM
Van - Your batteries are likely depleted. You need to take a specific gravity to confirm this and then you need to equalize you batteries to recharge them. Likely you will need to equalize many times in order to raise you specific gravities. Equalizing should be done at least on a monthly basis.     Hope this helps. Craig


 Evaluation
Note: Apparently, I went looking for the Deka manufacturer at this point and found East Penn Manufacturing and filled in their 'Contact Us' form.

MK Battery
to Van
Dec 3, 10:06 AM
Hi Van, I got passed along your information from East Penn. We are a wholly owned subsidiary of East Penn and handle everything solar related for them. You contacted East Penn but there wasn't much detail on your inquiry. How can I help you? Isaac Wels, Sales Support, MK Battery
1631 S. Sinclair, Anaheim, CA 92806, 714-922-2032, 800-372-9253, iwels(At)mkbattery.com


Van to
MK Battery
10:56 AM
Thanks for responding. Their message box was unable to take all of my text, so I was dropped into an Error message.

On Jan 12, 2012 I bought 16 B-DK-8A27 Deka AGM Batteries from Backwoods Solar to replace the 12 Optimas that I had installed in 2007. I did so because my solar system just wasn't holding a charge like it used to.

The 16 Dekas did not seem to make any difference. Then I went away for 7 months and am now back.

While away, a minimal load was active. It kept my desktop running 24/7 (plugged into a Cyberpower 1500PFCLCD UPS), along with 5 cameras (2 PTZ), a Crosley chest fridge and two daytime water pumps. I stayed in touch with it all through TeamViewer. With our return, the load is of course heavier, but no more then the load before the Optimas began to weaken.

Around mid afternoon, I unplug the fridge, the cameras and don't even think about the coffee maker (on its own UPS) or microwave, etc., just to have some lights through the night. By morning, the charge on the 16 Dekas sits around 41V 0.0A.

Now, at 11 AM, it is at 52V 13.0A. The panels show an input of 53V under a cloudy sky, which will increase to around 63V in an hour or two.

I have an Outback MX60 charge controller and a Mate3 monitor plugged into it. Also an Exeltech XP 1100 inverter.

It has been suggested that I should Equalize the battery bank frequently until and if that solves the problem. The MX60 manual says "Do not equalize sealed batteries".

You can see my setup at: https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2011/Solar/solar2011.htm

What should I do? Thanks, Van Blakeman (BTW: I prefer email so that I can remember what was said.)

MK Battery
to Van
Dec 3, 12:21 PM
Hi Van - Thank you for the detail and contacting the DEKA SOLAR TEAM. Let's start with a few questions and the DEKA renewable charging set points.
Please save the attached Renewable Charging Parameters. Reference the MONOBLOC/AGM column.

Questions:
1. System voltage? 48V DC, correct? 4 in series; 4 parallel strings?
2. You are completely off-grid, correct?
3. Source circuits? You are running PV but do you have a GENSET?
4. Initially, did you setup your charge controller with the attached parameters or did you leave it in the default setting?
5. Do you have an RTS (remote temperature sensor) installed?
6. Who sized and installed your PV and battery system?

Best Regards, Doug Laningham, Domestic - Renewable Energy/Solar, MK Battery - DEKA Solar, Elizabeth, CO, dlaningham(At)mkbattery.com, (720)839-4980


Van to
MK Battery
3:14 PM
1. System voltage? 48V DC, correct? 4 in series; 4 parallel strings?
   Yes. 48V: 4 x 4

2. You are completely off-grid, correct?
   Yes, completely off-grid

3. Source circuits? You are running PV but do you have a GENSET (Engine to generate electricity) ?
   Only PV; no generator.

4. Initially, did you setup your charge controller with the attached parameters or did you leave it in the default setting?
   default setting

5. Do you have an RTS (remote temperature sensor) installed?
   Yes an RTS is plugged into the MX60

6. Who sized and installed your PV and battery system?
   Me, with direct guidance from Mark Doppke of Affordable Solar.com and assistance from other pros.

Van to MK Battery
Dec 10, 5:28 PM
Is anybody going to respond to this?


MK Battery
to Van
Dec 11, 6:21 AM
Van - My apologies! Thank you for the reminder on this.

After looking over your data, I would recommend the following:
16 B-DK-8A27 Deka AGM Batteries
Use the charge settings in the attached Renewable Charging Parameters ........... MONOBLOC/AGM column.

Given that your only source circuit is PV/Solar (no GENSET), it is safe to assume that your batteries are not getting fully charged during the winter months.

Yes. I would recommend an equalization charge following the guidelines in the attached (under equalization stage). In a "partial state-of-charge" application like yours, it is acceptable to occasionally equalize the battery bank to break up sulfation.         Best Regards, Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
4:22 PM
My Absorb Volts is 57.6, so I left it at that.
My Float Volts was 54.4, so I reduced it to 54.2.
My Limit Amps is 60.0. Your specs say "6 times I(sub 20)[1.75vpc]".   What is that?
MK Battery
to Van
Dec 12, 9:39 AM
Van - "30% of the C20" means the charge limit is 30% of the 20AH rating for the particular battery
"6 times the I20" means the charge limit is multiplying the 20 hr current rating by 6.
Either way works out to be the same value.

Example 8G31
: (Deka/MK Battery 8G31-DEKA Sealed Gel Battery, 12 volt 97.6 AH)

   30% of C20: where C20 = 97.6 AH; calculation: .3 x 97.6 = 29.28 A
   6 times I20
: where I20 = 4.88 A; calculation:  6 x 4.88 = 29.28 A

Hope this helps...           Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
11:48 AM
My Limit Amps is 60.0. Is that correct?

MK Battery
to Van
12:10 PM
8A27-DEKA (12V, AGM, 92AH at C20 to 1.75vpc) .................. see attached spec.
Assuming: 48V DC (x 4 parallel strings)
TO CALCULATE BULK STAGE:
92AH x .3 = 27.6 amps (max.current)
27.6 x 4 strings = 110.4 amps (max.current)         Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
4:29 PM
"27.6 x 4 strings = 110.4 amps"
So you are saying that I should raise the Limit Amps from 60 to 110.4?

MK Battery
to Van
5:23 PM
Van - I'm not sure about your particular charge controller but during the BULK STAGE, you can charge up to a maximum of 110.4 amps.
When you say limit, are you saying maximum or minimum?         Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
9:59 PM
It is an Outback MX60. In its CHARGER SETUP screen it now shows:

LIMIT ABSORB FLOAT
Amps Volts Volts
*60.0 57.6 54.2
EXIT --> - +

with 4 soft buttons below the screen for selection (EXIT, -->, -, +).

In the MX60 Manual, (attached) it says:
"The default charger output current limit setting is 60 amps and is adjustable up to 70 amps. At 70 amps, a 70A or 80A breaker must be used between the battery and the MX60.

Change Absorb and Float set points using this screen if the battery manufacturer's recommendations are different than the default values. Otherwise, see page 79 for suggested recharging voltage set points."

I have a 63A breaker installed.

BTW, I ran the equalization today for 1 hour. Should I run it for a longer period?

MK Battery
to Van
Dec 13, 8:18 AM
Van - I'll call you to discuss! What is your phone number?

A. If your controller only goes up to a max of 70 amps and we are saying a max of 110.4 amps.............potential issue here!!
B. Without a GENSET and charging with PV only, how will you get the batteries fully charged during the winter months?

My suggestion:
I would "definitely" look into a GENSET
(Engine-generator used to generate electricity) (preferably, with auto start capability).         Doug Laningham

MK Battery
to Van
9:47 AM
Van - Regarding your question of EQUALIZE TIME, that's a good starting point at 1 hour.
After a 24 hour settling period, you should check your battery OCV voltages - per battery is ideal; OCV (open circuit voltages), without a load present.
If you cannot disconnect the battery bank, I understand!!

Please call me if you get a minute.         Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
11:06 AM
Hi Doug, We are leaving for the day, so I'll hold off on calling you, especially considering the following:

Remember, from 2007 to 2011, there were no problems. In 2011 it entered the current weak power mode so I replaced my 12 Optimas with 16 Dekas. Since then, while away, everything has worked fine on a minimal load:
24/7 desktop computer plugged into a UPS, 6 cameras including 2 PTZ, 2 water pumps, chest refrigerator.

When we returned in November and began using the microwave, a coffee maker, a compost toilet fan/heater, a tankless water heater, eco bulb lighting - all of which were temporary; as needed, the system could not handle it.

With your guidance and the MX60 manual, I equalized it for one hour, reduced the Float Volts from 54.4 to 54.2 (no clue as to whether that helped or not), and equalized it again for one hour yesterday.

Prior to the above, at night before going to bed, it would show maybe 48 or 47 volts in the bank. In the morning, with almost no load, it was usually down between 41 to 43 volts. Drank cold coffee made the day before. By 10 AM or so, on a sunny day, it would be up to 49 volts and 10 or better Amps where I could get one hot cup of coffee. An hour or 2 later I could let the coffee machine complete its cycle.

The night before last, I activated the equalization process, aware that it would not actually kick in until the bank was full. In the morning, it showed "EQ-MPPT" on the MX60's screen, which I believe means that it is still waiting to kick in.

At about 1 PM, when I guessed that the banks were almost full, I turned off the entire load at the inverter and took a 2 hour nap. My wife was out and about on a spending binge so she did not have to experience the complete loss of power.

When I got up, I turned the load back on at the inverter. It was a sunny day. The MX60 screen did not show "EQ-MPPT" (not 100% sure about that), so I assumed that it had done its thing.

That night, last night, when I retired, it showed 48.8 volts. When I woke up this morning, it showed 48.8 volts. Huh!? I had not seen that in the AM in years.

I microwaved my mug of coffee AND got the 975 watt coffee machine going with a fresh brew. It made it all the way through without a hitch. I plugged the fridge back in, heated my wife some hot water in the electric kettle for her tea, moved into my office and got the computer going. With all that, it had only dropped to 48.4 volts. Wow!

Then my wife heated up a bowl of soup in the new 600 watt microwave and the voltage dropped to the 42 - 43 volt range.

It is 10:38 AM as I type this. The sky is overcast but bright, so it only shows 3.0 Amps, 44.9 Volts, but climbing. I am on the computer. She is doing nothing, electrically.

The odd thing is that the MX60 screen is showing "EQ-MPPT" again.

10:47 AM. 48.9V 4.0A. It is raining now in the high desert, but bright. I am about to take a nap while my wife heads into town (Oh God!). I will probably hit the Inverter switch again. When I wake up I will turn it back on, get a cup of coffee and check the computer. She will probably be back by then. We will then head down the hill to Palm Springs for the afternoon. Hopefully the sun will be out by then and maybe I'll kill the load again, so the thing can complete its equalization.

11:04 AM. 46.6V 2.0A. I have no clue what is going on.

MK Battery to Van
11:41 AM
Understood. Ring me when you can.         Doug Laningham


 Testing
Van to MK Battery
Jan 4, 10:21 AM
Inverter off full sun both days
8A27-DEKA 1/3/2013 1/4/2013
Batteries 3:00 PM 5:30 AM
1 14.42 12.17
2 15.18
3 14.34
4 14.73
5 14.95? 12.15
6 14.75
7 15.01
8 14.92
9 14.00 12.21
10 14.78
11 14.99
12 14.85
13 14.58 12.20
14 14.61
15 14.62
16 14.86
1 - 16 58.40 48.60


I think the above shows that all is okay and yet on January 1 we woke up to no power. I believe it showed about 41.5V. That seems to happen about every third day or so.
About a week before that, I had set the MX60 to equalize again for one hour (which actually took about 4 or 5 days to complete itself).

We use about the same load every day, including unplugging the fridge at night.
This morning it seems to be exceptionally smooth. We have had about an hour of sun since it came over the hill, though at an oblique angle.

I just turned on my 975 watt coffee machine even though it is showing only 48V and 7A on the MATE3 extension monitor. Normally I have to wait until it shows at least 10A. Anything less would trip the breaker in the inverter.
After a 10 minute run, it completed its cycle without a hitch. My wife also ran the 600W microwave for 1.5 minutes. Just plugged the fridge back in. The MATE3 is showing 50.1V, 9A.

I am guessing that the above numbers are suggesting that I could do another 1 hour equalization.
If we wake up again to no power, I'll take some readings then. Any ideas?

MK Battery to Van
10:02 AM
How cold is it getting in the battery room?         Doug Laningham

Van to MK Battery
11:19 AM
It is winter in the CA high desert, usually down to the 30s at night, occasionally the high 20s, but it gets up to the 50s to 70s in the daytime.

I usually have the propane heater going in here (my office and the battery room), off and on, until about 8:00 PM.

MK Battery to Van
1:06 PM
Thanks Van. I'm not sure what's going on with your system. I would recommend speaking with Affordable Solar (where I purchased my original setup in 2007) and see about adding a GENSET (Engine-generator to generate electricity) to supplement your loads (and charging) during the winter months. Please save the current charging parameters (attached).

Some possibilities:

#1: Battery capacity will drop as the temperature goes down, especially during the cold snaps, effecting run time. (ex. chart on pg.4 of the attached AGM brochure)

#2: Battery Plate sulfation: if the batteries ever experienced an extended over-discharge (below 10.5v per battery).

#3: Ratio of PV/Solar to battery bank? How many watts of PV are you running?        Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
Jan 10, 10:04 AM
Woke up to no power this morning after 6 days of good power. These (on the right) are the readings I took this morning:

Inverter off full sun powerno power
8A27-DEKA 1/3/2013 1/4/20131/10/2013
Batteries 3:00 PM 5:30 AM5:30 AM
1 14.42 12.1712.00
2 15.18
12.06
3 14.34
10.80
4 14.73
12.07
5 14.95? 12.1511.40
6 14.75
11.42
7 15.01
12.10
8 14.92
12.12
9 14.00 12.2111.47
10 14.78
12.07
11 14.99
12.07
12 14.85
11.57
13 14.58 12.2011.83
14 14.61
12.09
15 14.62
11.24
16 14.86
12.09
1 - 16 58.40 48.6046.30


Battery 3 shows 10.80. It also had the lowest reading when all were fully charged on 1/3. Could that be the problem?

MK Battery to Van
10:33 AM
Hi Van - That's very possible!!

If you can pull that battery out of the string and attempt to charge it up, that would be a good idea. It's really hard to say but 10.8v is almost 100% discharged. It should "never" get that low.

That battery plates might be sulfated, preventing a full re-charge.
OCV (open circuit voltage) of the 8A27 (fully charged) = 12.8 V or higher.         Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
11:13 AM
Do you mean that I should disconnect the top tier, moving the cable from the MX60 down to the next tier? Then turn the system back on and use my car's trickle charger to charge battery #3. Should that be set to the trickle mode, or can I give it a fast charge?

MK Battery to Van
12:51 PM
Unfortunately that's correct! I've attached the 8A manual which has some helpful information.
Note: The Renewable Energy Charging Parameters should be used for your PV application.         Doug Laningham


 Solution  
Discussion
Van to MK Battery
Jan 23, 7:09 AM
Hi Doug, With battery #3 removed, all is well.

On January 12, I moved the controller cable from battery #4 down to battery #8, so we now had a 12 battery system, rather then 16.

Nothing good occurred over the next couple of days. The skies were overcast and the outside temp got as low as 16 (inside 24). We escaped for 2 days and returned to cracked pipes, no water and flaky power, but clear skies.

Then, unexpectedly, we awoke the next morning to power. It has now been a week of good power and no problems. I can run my 975 watt coffee machine in the morning with no apparent affect on the system.

Each morning, I connected my 2 Amp trickle charger to battery #3 and disconnected it at night. It would begin with 12.5 (+/-) Volts and end the day at about 13.04 Volts, loosing that much overnight with no load. So battery #3 appears to be the culprit.

I can find no serial number, just: TYPE No. 8A27, 12V92AH C/20, 12V100AH C/100. What would you like me to do?

MK Battery to Van
7:19 AM
Can you email me the date code on that battery?
Ex. A2 or B1. Look for this on the top label.         Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
9:27 AM
It is A2.

MK Battery to Van
9:59 AM
Hi Van, What were the other batteries voltage readings the next morning?         Doug Laningham

Van to MK Battery
12:53 PM
I do not understand why you ask.
I will take those measurements tomorrow, if you really need the data.
They, charged by the solar system, are strong.

Battery #3, independent from the others and charged by my vehicle's trickle charger after removing it from the bank, is obviously bad. So I need for Deka to send me a free replacement.

MK Battery to Van
1:42 PM
Comparing the voltages battery to battery in the string. Im thinking the suspect battery may be sulfated.         Doug Laningham

Van to MK Battery
Jan 24, 6:48 AM
You have been provided all the numbers in the past.

Compared to the other 15, this battery is defective and has been poisoning the system from the beginning. As a result, we have already sacrificed way too much because of this defective DEKA battery.

I got the DEKAs because Backwoods Solar said they were the best, and yet as a group they have proven from the beginning to be worse then the 12 Optimas I used previously for 5 years.

You have chosen to take charge of this situation instead of referring me back to Backwoods.
Now I am asking you to make the decision to replace this battery now so that I can get back to normal. You can arrange for the UPS guy to take this one away with him, so that you can explore and experiment all you want. I have had enough.

MK Battery to Van
11:02 PM
Hi Van - I will speak to Backwoods today and one of us will get back to you ASAP! I'm sorry for your frustration and "certainly" understand that being off-grid makes it more time sensitive. Thanks again for your data!         Doug Laningham

Van to MK Battery
Feb 12, 8:21 AM
Doug, Where the heck is that battery?? I have heard nothing from either of you.

Van to MK Battery
Feb 21, 11:35 AM
Hello??

MK Battery to Van
11:42 PM
Hi Van - Backwoods has been attempting to contact you via email and phone.
Have you received their calls and emails?
We both are willing to assist you with a new battery but need to speak with you about your system.
Please contact Craig at Backwoods who you purchased the batteries from and we will be happy to assist.         Doug Laningham


Van to MK Battery
3:10 PM
I have problems getting phone calls which is one reason I ask for email only.
The second reason is that I need a record of what was said; anything said on the phone is entirely lost to me.

Regardless, I have no record in my phone of calls from a caller ID of Backwoods. The last email and call from Backwoods that I know of occurred in November.
His last email said:
Subject: RE: Blakeman question
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:49:41 -0800
From: Backwoods Solar
To: 'Van'
Your batteries are likely depleted. You need to take a specific gravity to confirm this and then you need to equalize you batteries to recharge them. Likely you will need to equalize many times in order to raise you specific gravities. Equalizing should be done at least on a monthly basis. Hope this helps. Craig
For the last month or so, I have been running on 12 batteries, with 4 of the 16 disconnected, 1 of those proved to be defective.

I have been waiting for you guys to simply send a new one with instructions for UPS to take the bad one away. You have not done so.

We have way overdone the testing from every angle; I have had enough of this - too many mornings with no power and you can thank God that you are not communicating with my wife (I am); enough suffering just to run more tests.


 New Battery
Backwoods Solar
to Van
Feb 12, 3:49 PM
Van - With an AGM battery they don't actually need to be equalized but potentially can be restored if they are given longer periods of absorption. What kind of schedule do you follow for trying to recharge these batteries ? Do you run a generator to recharge the batteries ? How many solar panels do you have ?         Thanks, Craig, Backwoods Solar

Van to BW Solar
5:09 PM
Whenever the sun shines, they are recharged only by my 4 Sharp 216 watt panels through an Outback MX60 Charge Controller. You can see my exact setup at:
https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2007/Solar/solar.html

The new Deka battery installation is shown at the bottom of:
https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2011/Solar/solar2011.htm

All systems worked fine until 2011, so I replaced the batteries through you, and one of them turned out to be bad.
I have never used a generator or anything else to charge the battery banks though I plan to get a Generac EcoGen Series 5818- 6kW Standby Generator for Off Grid Applications (LP).

Under Doug's instruction, I did equalize the 16 twice for one hour each.
After finding the bad battery, I disconnected its bank of 4, and the system improved dramatically.

Then at his request, I tried to charge the bad one with my portable car charger for 7 days (not nights). The best it obtained was 13.04 volts which dropped quickly to 12.59 volts (with no load) after removing the charger.

BW Solar to Van
Feb 25, 11:01 AM
Van - Per our first email to you - we don't think the battery is defective but as a gesture of good will we have agreed to replace ONE (1) of your 8A27 batteries. Please respond with you shipping address and we can work out the details with Doug at DEKA.         Craig

Van to BW Solar
11:18 PM
(Address provided)
Why don't you think the battery is bad?



 Discussion
Van to BW Solar
and to MK Battery
Mar 22, 8:06 AM
I received the new battery a couple of weeks ago. There was no reverse order from either of you to take the bad battery away. I could sell it to Autozone for $5, but I would rather you have it so that you can determine to your satisfaction that it really is bad.

I put the new one and the other 3 back into service, so that all 16 were finally back in their original configuration. The next morning, the power went out as usual, but at least I got the coffee made.

That never happened again.

I gave it a couple of days to settle and then I initiated a 1 hour equalization as I had done twice in the past under your direction. That completed itself the next day after I shut off the load for a few hours.

The system has steadily gained in resiliency since then, as I have concurrently began leaving the Crosley fridge and other things on at night. I wake up every morning now to a strong 49+ V system, run my 975 W coffee maker and use my desktop computer without a hitch. When the sun comes over the hill and hits my panels at about 9 AM, it is still reading 48.6 V, or so. I am a happy camper.

Craig, I finally got my voicemail working right, by moving everything to Google Voice. In the process, I found some old ones from you and from my wife that had eluded me in the past.

You have stated that you were shipping me a new battery even though you still suspect that there was nothing wrong with the old one. REALLY?? I still have that battery waiting for you to recall it.

Your signature includes "Please include prior emails". Craig, you do not read them. I have even included those to and from Doug so that you can see that we have gone through some very thorough testing over a long period of time. How come, as I type this, I know that you have not gotten this far; you have already made up your mind and are not interested. Please prove me wrong.

Also, Craig, you mentioned in a recent voicemail that you might no longer honor the warranty. REALLY? I don't think so. Are you going bankrupt? Otherwise, I fully expect you to meet your obligations.

I have run your logo and link on my web site for years. I bet you don't even know that.

When I get time, I'll put together another article on my web site describing this whole process, including these emails, but chronological and formatted for clarity. I'll send you a link.

Doug of MK Battery - DEKA Solar, you have been great. Thank you.

BW Solar to Van
2:26 PM
Van, Sorry I'm coming in to this after the fact. My name is Brian. Craig is off today. It is my understanding that the batteries we sold you sat either not installed to a charging source or were operating in a system that was left unattended, please let me know if this is incorrect. Both scenarios would have potential sulfation problems. The conversation that Craig was hoping to have was regarding battery care and tips for giving you the longest possible battery life. It seems that the battery bank is currently meeting your expectations, which is great. This is surely helped by the fact the shortest days of the year are now behind us and we are all seeing better battery charging on our systems.

Hopefully you will understand that to process a battery warranty claim we typically have the conversation on the phone regarding optimal battery care, which helps us to understand the full situation and answer questions and concerns quickly for our customers. Part of this conversation talks about minimal cycling (5%-15% per night being ideal) and a full charge at a minimum of 2-3 times per week being essential. If batteries are operating unattended in the Winter it is highly probable that the batteries were not receiving a full charge. Thus, causing some of the issues you encountered. Some charge controllers offer data logging and this is incredibly helpful in determining how a battery has been treated. Your MX60 is one of these charge controllers and we would be happy to help you read this past data and look at any potential issues that could occur with the new replacement batteries.

The replacement of your existing battery was out of good will and because we want to provide excellent service to our customers. In review of the previous email correspondence, it may be that the solar array is undersized to support the loads that you have present in your system, especially in lower sun months. Sealed batteries traditionally should not be discharged below 30% on a regular basis for optimal battery life, and should have a longer absorb time. At 48.6V, you are already discharged to 40% before the sun comes up. If this is happening on a regular basis, it has been found that it will unfortunately shorten the battery life.

This is why most off-grid systems use flooded batteries. However, we understand that you are unable to be present at the property on a monthly basis to properly maintain a flooded battery bank. This is that trade-off for maintenance free sealed batteries, but they have different charge/discharge perimeters that help lengthen their life.

We would hope that you can see that we are trying our best to work with you through these issues and that this last email mitigates some of the concerns you may have had previously with our desire to provide the best customer service. You are welcome to contact Sequoya Cross, one of Backwoods Solar's owners regarding these issues directly. We want to make sure that in the end you are left satisfied with the level of service we have given and that you continue to be a long standing and loyal customer.         Thanks, -Brian


Van to BW Solar
4:18 PM
Thank you for the email. I am unable to work on stuff like this by phone.

First, that 48.6 V is what I have after 16 to 17 hours of no direct sun. That is pretty darn good. It passes between two mountain ranges in the daytime.

Now, at 3:30 PM on a hazy day, the Mate3 is showing 57.6 V 8.0 A, having reached 15.0 A at some point today. Most days are clear and sharp, so it usually does even better.

The batteries have never gone unused. They were connected immediately upon arrival last year and have kept the fridge, cameras and my computer going 24/7, and two pond pumps in the day time. When we are away for the Summer, I am still watching over everything daily through 5 IP cameras and Teamviewer. As I understand it, I would be doing no more then that when present, except for perhaps an occasional 1 hour equalization. The batteries are never unattended for more then 2 or 3 days during the Winter months.

Keep in mind that on page 34 of the MX60 manual it says "Sealed batteries should not be equalized unless specifically instructed by the manufacturer." Up until I contacted you and Doug, I had received nothing from you or DEKA regarding the opposite. From that, I can still assume that going up to 7 months, Spring to Fall, without equalization is perfectly fine. Beyond that, there is no maintenance to perform.

Are you going to have UPS take away the bad battery? I still have the box.

BW Solar to Van
5:00 PM
Van, In regards to the battery voltage question. 8 amps of input from the charge control at 3:30 tells me that you may be getting to the float stage and have some loads on or you could still be in absorb or bulk. Can you verify that you are getting to float on the charge control on a daily basis? Or getting to float a few times per week? Also, the MX80 [sic] has an adjustable absorb time setting. I would recommend 3 hours of absorb time.

As for the batteries usage, what I was referring to was several months while not being on site. You mentioned some extremely low voltage readings in your previous emails. Low enough to damage batteries. You are correct that there would be no additional maintenance. We are just concerned about not being on site to prevent a really low battery bank voltage. For seasonal usage I normally recommend reducing your loads to the bare minimum, or no loads at all.

You are correct that you normally don't equalize sealed batteries. That is not a problem. But letting your battery bank go below 48 V is a problem.

We don't want the battery back. You can take it to your recycler for the $5.        Regards, Brian


Van to BW Solar
Mar 25, 7:27AM
Saturday, March 23, ended with with a Float of 0:00, I think, and an Absorb of 2:00.
On Sunday, I took notes:

Oper. Float AbsorbTimeVolts
01:39 0:00 0:0009:2648.7?
03:48 0:00 0:0011:35?
07:11 0:00 0:0515:00?
08:11 0:00 1:0216:00?
09:16 0:00 2:0617:04?
10:11 0:53 2:0718:0054.6
10:40 1:22 2:0719:0850.0

Now (Monday):
Oper. Float AbsorbTimeVolts
0:00 0:00 0:0007:2548.8


I have an MX60, not an MX80.

The low voltage readings in the past were due to the bad battery tearing the rest down, and my not knowing that it is okay to equalize.

BW Solar to Van
10:16 AM
Van - As said previously, going into spring it looks like you are now getting enough sun to stay ahead of your loads. For the future, changing your absorb time to 3 hours instead of 2 will go along way to helping your batteries stay healthy. Also, consider the next upgrade to your system to be the addition of more solar panels to make up for the longer darker days in the winter.        Regards, Brian


 Problem
Kath-Tom to Van
Mar 12 12:35 PM
Hey Van, We haven't seen hide nor hair of you in days, and we know a vicious cold lurks. Are you all right? Anything you need from us to help? xxx Katherine and Tom

Van to Kath-Tom
6:59 PM
HI Katherine and Tom, No I am very healthy Thk God; wouldn't have time for that. ... diagnosed a weak, often dead, poorly functioning power system. After maybe two months of that, they sent me a new battery and the system is running very smooth again.
Knock on wood; really too soon to say that.
Hard to imagine that one bad battery was able to tear down the entire 16 battery system. ...

~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~

Van to Steph-Dave
July 4, 8:14 AM
Hi Stephanie & Dave. Back east, I am into my 2nd day of no internet connection to my computer there or the cameras. When you get this, please let me know - It will mean that we do have internet.

My main concern is that our power may be down and therefore the trees would be getting no water. Can you check the next time you go by there? If you see a red light on any camera, or if any lamps kick on as you walk by them, then we have power and all is well. Thanks, Van

Steph to Van
1:09 PM
Hi Van, the internet is working here.
I don't see any red lights. No lights came on but it is bright daylight. Stephanie


Van to Steph
3:21 PM
Between 9 and 5, the waterfall would be running in the pond, which means that its electrical pump is running and we have electricity.

Next to the Rheem tankless water heater against the trailer is an outlet with 3 heat tapes plugged into it, two of which would have orange LED lights glowing 24/7.

Steph to Van
9:26 PM
There was no water running, and no lights tonight. I have a meeting in 29 tomorrow but should be back in the afternoon if you want me to do something. Stephanie

Van to Steph
11:20 PM
Yes, I would appreciate that very much. Perhaps the system got too hot in the 100 degree weather and shut down. Don't know what is going on.

The only new electrical are the heat tapes and an automatic lamp on the carport which has no switch. I suppose you could begin by unplugging all 6 heat tapes. Don't need them now, so we could eliminate that possibility. 3 are under the edge of the trailer on the street side, behind a water faucet no longer in use. The other 3 are next to the Rheem box against the trailer on the deck side.

Does anything look odd around the solar panels, like a disconnected wire or such?

There are a few breakers inside that could be flipped off and on. The most likely breaker would be the one straight ahead as you walk in, left of the battery bank, between two vertical black boxes.

Feel free to try all of that on your own and let me know if it worked, or you can get me on the phone first if you prefer. I will pay your July phone bill.

When the power does go on, please also turn on my computer. I should be able to take control from there.

If this does not work, do you know any electricians who know solar?


The next day I guided her by phone to the mini-switch below the inverter. I had forgotten about that switch, but her comment about hearing a faint ringing sound reminded me of past experience. She toggled it off, then on. The ringing stopped, the power resummed and she could hear the pond pump kick in. She then turned the computer on.

Van to Steph
July 5, 6:17 PM
You have succeeded Stephanie. I am up and running. Thanks.

Steph to Van
8:24 PM
ok, good. let me know if you need more help or if you want me to lock the doors tomorrow. Stephanie


Van to Steph
July 10, 1:56 PM
Hi Stephanie, It looks like the power may have gone out again this morning. Could you flick the switch under the inverter near the floor off and then on again. The batteries should have a good charge by now.

Steph to Van
2:46 PM
Hi Van. I could have sworn the camera lights were on last night. I will go look.

Van to Steph
3:06 PM
Yes, the power went out this morning. I see that it just came on, so I assume you did that. Thank you.

Only one problem; the computer is off so I can't watch the water spigots, but they should work whether I watch them or not.

Steph to Van
3:56 PM
Hi Van. I flipped the switch on and off -- heard noises and the waterfall is back on.

Do you want me to turn on the computer? That is, press that button on the top of the screen? No problem, I can go back down there.


Van to Steph
5:00 PM
Yes, I would appreciate your starting the computer at your convenience. Then I can take it from there (using Teamviewer - free software).

Steph to Van
5:41 PM
Hi Van. I turned on the computer. I thought I heard it go on when I was outside. I went back in but the screen is blank so I can't tell if it's on or not -- assume so.

Still cloudy and strangely humid.


Van to Steph
10:07 PM
In a previous voicemail, she had recommended an electrician named Tim Pinar

I cannot find a Tim Pinari (I had it wrong at first) anywhere online, but I also discovered that 760 485-1276 would put him in Indio which is way too far off. I want somebody nearby that can drop by as needed without it being a major trip. I will do some more searching. I did get some good advice from a few locals when I was installing the system, so I will see if I can find one of them.

Steph to Van
July 11, 8:39 AM
I checked and that is Tim's phone # that you have. Since people take their #s with them anymore, you can't really tell where they are from. Stephanie

Van to Steph
9:15 AM
Tom (neighbor) says: "Van, We used Mark Heinz of Solar Now in Yucca Valley. Totally recommend him, great guy."

Is Tim local? If he is, I'll call him.

The power appears to be off again. No sense restarting until the sun has come over the hill and had at least an hour to recharge the batteries. If overcast, then longer.

Steph to Van
10:13 AM
Hi Van, Tim is local, I'm not sure where he lives but maybe on Yucca Mesa? I know he does electric, but I don't know about solar.

It is actually kind of raining right now so pretty cloudy. I will wait for sun to reboot. Stephanie


Van to Steph
July 12 11:49 AM
7/12/13 2:45 PM (EST): Called Tim Pinar 760 485-1276 and left voicemail.

Steph to Van
12:08 PM
It's still cloudy today so I haven't done anything. It's supposed to clear up tomorrow. I may be hiking some of the day but if you want me to try turning it on again let me know. Stephanie

Van to Steph
1:50 PM
My last was accidental. I was making a note of when I called him for my records. Clicked on Send when I meant to click on Save.

Yes, would appreciate your turning on the power and the computer any time it is convenient.

Steph to Van
2:23 PM
Done.

Van to Steph
July 13, 8:38 AM
The sun came over the hill in all its glory at 8:15 AM and we still had power!!!! Life is good.


 Evaluation
Van to Tim Pinar
July 14, 1:27 PM
Hi Tim, Sending this first as a test to make sure I got it right. Relative links to follow. Van

Tim Pinar to Van
2:57 PM
Got it, Van, send away.

Van to Tim
copy to Steph
9:07 PM
Thanks for getting back to me.

These links will give you an idea of what my system is about:

Intro: https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2007/Jour/JT07journal_06.htm

2007:   https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2007/JT07.php

2011:   https://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2011/Solar/solar2011.htm

I still have to pull together everything that occurred during our 2012-2013 visit, relative to the electric. I will go to work on that now, but it will take a few days.
Let me know when you are ready for more and I'll see what I can provide.

In the mean time, feel free to wander around the place. I have asked Stephanie to leave the door to the "utility house" unlocked. Enter. Check it out.
And do me a favor. If the power is off, and I think it is, flick the mini-switch under the inverter off and then on. You will see a mirror on the floor under that switch. Stephanie has been doing this for me almost every other day or so.

Then turn my computer on (top edge of monitor under the brass shade, right of center), and 3000 miles away, I will take it from there.

Keep track of your time and bill me (by email preferred) as you wish.
My check will take about a week to reach you, or I can give you my CC number over the phone. I can also transfer directly from my ING (Capital 360) or PayPal accounts, if you have either.

Steph to Tim
copy to Van
July 15, 4:59 PM
Hi Van and Tim, I am in and out this week but Tim if you want to meet at Van's and I can give you the lay of the land let me know when might work. I'm sure you can probably figure it out or maybe you have already been. But if I'm around I can help show you what I know. which isn't much.

Van to Steph
July 17, 12:00 PM
Hi Stephanie, If you get a chance, could you flick the inverter switch off-on, turn on the computer and run the plant timer for 10?

Steph to Van
4:13 PM
Hi Van, I just saw this and started the water. I set an alarm to go back.

Fire in Idyllwild is causing lots of smoke over here past few days.



Tim to Van
copy to Steph
July 18, 7:44 AM
Van, I just spoke with Dan Pritchett, the solar expert. He and I will go to your place on Monday 7-22, I will hand the problem off to him and advise you of what he finds. Thanks, Tim

Van to Tim
3:09 PM
Sounds good Tim. I appreciate your keeping me advised via email. Thanks, Van

Van to Tim
copy to Steph
July 20, 11:30 PM
Hi Tim and Stephanie, Just finished uploading everything that has occurred regarding this problem over the last year and a half. Everything. Every word!
Read as much or as little as you like. The main index you will first see is a good overall synopsis. Click on any of those links and any picture to get a close-up of that part of the story. Go to: http://www.blakeman.net/_VA/CA/JT/2012/JT12.php. Click on "Solar-Down" at the center of the screen. At the bottom of it all, you will even see your own contributions. Enjoy. Hope it helps, Van

Tim to
Dan Pritchett
July 21, 7:59 AM
Dan, feel free to peruse Van's links, if you're inclined. I have to take my truck to the mechanic at 8am on Monday. If I were to meet you in Joshua tree on Monday morning at 9:30, would that work you? We can meet in the front of the park center, and then go up to Van's from there. Tim



Ongoing Discussion